Our podcast on markets, the economy and business. This week, we speak to deputy prime minister Chrystia Freeland about the biggest challenges facing Canada’s government

Policy lessons from North America’s second-largest economy

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O Canada: policy lessons from North America’s second-largest economy

The Canadian national flag and the cityscape of Toronto in Ontario, Canada.

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This week we sit down with the woman who is second-in-command of a large North American country, is heir apparent to take over as party leader and whose party faces a daunting upcoming election. Chrystia Freeland, the deputy prime minister of Canada, joins Money Talks to discuss housing shortages, immigration policy and shifting attitudes to global trade. What lessons are there from Canada for the rest of the world?

This week we sit down with the woman who is second-in-command of a large North American country, is heir apparent to take over as party leader and whose party faces a <a href="https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2024/04/04/justin-trudeau-is-beset-by-a-divided-party-and-an-angry-electorate">daunting upcoming election</a>. Chrystia Freeland, the deputy prime minister of Canada, joins Money Talks to discuss housing shortages, immigration policy and shifting attitudes to global trade. What lessons are there from Canada for the rest of the world?

Hosts: Alice Fulwood, Tom Lee-Devlin and Mike Bird. Guests: Chrystia Freeland, deputy prime minister of Canada and The Economist’s Simon Rabinovitch.

Hosts: Alice Fulwood, Tom Lee-Devlin and Mike Bird. Guests: Chrystia Freeland, deputy prime minister of Canada and The Economist’s Simon Rabinovitch.

Money Talks

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TikTok video [00:00:07] I want to know how in hell people in Canada are even living.

TikTok video [00:00:07] I want to know how in hell people in Canada are even living.

Alice Fulwood [00:00:11] Last September a TikTok video went viral in Canada.

Alice Fulwood [00:00:11] Last September a TikTok video went viral in Canada.

TikTok video [00:00:15] I still can’t do shit. I can’t buy anything. I can’t afford the rent these days, like. I’m just. I’m. I’m just feeling so much despair.

TikTok video [00:00:15] I still can’t do shit. I can’t buy anything. I can’t afford the rent these days, like. I’m just. I’m. I’m just feeling so much despair.

Alice Fulwood [00:00:28] Sydney, a 33 year old who posts under the username home setting millennial, was despairing at the unaffordable cost of housing. She’s not alone. Homeownership rates among young Canadians have been steadily falling since 2011, even though they’ve recovered in other rich countries since the lows of the global financial crisis. More young Canadians are stuck living with their parents. Some have been pushed into taking even more extreme measures.

Alice Fulwood [00:00:28] Sydney, a 33 year old who posts under the username home setting millennial, was despairing at the unaffordable cost of housing. She’s not alone. Homeownership rates among young Canadians have been steadily falling since 2011, even though they’ve recovered in other rich countries since the lows of the global financial crisis. More young Canadians are stuck living with their parents. Some have been pushed into taking even more extreme measures.

News clip [00:00:56] Commuting to class looks different for Tim Chan, who doesn’t board a bus but a plane to get to university. The art student flies twice a week from Calgary to Vancouver, saving big bucks on rent.

News clip [00:00:56] Commuting to class looks different for Tim Chan, who doesn’t board a bus but a plane to get to university. The art student flies twice a week from Calgary to Vancouver, saving big bucks on rent.

Tim Chen [00:01:10] I need to pay like 2500 for the rent. I don’t feel that a like, you know, viable.

Tim Chen [00:01:10] I need to pay like 2500 for the rent. I don’t feel that a like, you know, viable.

Alice Fulwood [00:01:16] High interest rates have only exacerbated the issue, as has rising youth unemployment. As you might expect, all of this is making young Canadians increasingly angry and pessimistic about their economic prospects.

Alice Fulwood [00:01:16] High interest rates have only exacerbated the issue, as has rising youth unemployment. As you might expect, all of this is making young Canadians increasingly angry and pessimistic about their economic prospects.

Pierre Poilievre [00:01:29] We learned some tragic news over the last several days.

Pierre Poilievre [00:01:29] We learned some tragic news over the last several days.

Alice Fulwood [00:01:32] That’s Pierre Poilievre, who leads the opposition Conservative Party.

Alice Fulwood [00:01:32] That’s Pierre Poilievre, who leads the opposition Conservative Party.

Pierre Poilievre [00:01:36] The number of Torontonians living in tents on the street has doubled in the last year. This is a new problem. We didn’t have tent cities before.

Pierre Poilievre [00:01:36] The number of Torontonians living in tents on the street has doubled in the last year. This is a new problem. We didn’t have tent cities before.

Alice Fulwood [00:01:47] Justin Trudeau bemoaning housing affordability is paying off politically. Young people tend to be left leaning, and we’re big fans of Justin Trudeau, the current Canadian prime minister, early in his tenure. But support for the conservatives has shot up among the 30s. It is now double the support for Trudeau’s Liberal Party. Why is housing such an acute problem in Canada? What lessons can the rest of the world draw from its experience, and is there anything the government can do to respond? You’re listening to Money Talks from The Economist. Our weekly podcast on the markets, the economy and the world of business. In Washington, D.C.. I’m Alice Fulwood.

Alice Fulwood [00:01:47] Justin Trudeau bemoaning housing affordability is paying off politically. Young people tend to be left leaning, and we’re big fans of Justin Trudeau, the current Canadian prime minister, early in his tenure. But support for the conservatives has shot up among the 30s. It is now double the support for Trudeau’s Liberal Party. Why is housing such an acute problem in Canada? What lessons can the rest of the world draw from its experience, and is there anything the government can do to respond? You’re listening to Money Talks from The Economist. Our weekly podcast on the markets, the economy and the world of business. In Washington, D.C.. I’m Alice Fulwood.

Tom Lee-Devlin [00:02:35] In London, I’m Tom Lee-Devlin.

Tom Lee-Devlin [00:02:35] In London, I’m Tom Lee-Devlin.

Mike Bird [00:02:38] In Singapore, I’m Mike Bird.

Mike Bird [00:02:38] In Singapore, I’m Mike Bird.

Alice Fulwood [00:02:41] And in today’s show, what lessons can the world learn from the challenges facing Canada?

Alice Fulwood [00:02:41] And in today’s show, what lessons can the world learn from the challenges facing Canada?

Tom Lee-Devlin [00:02:47] First, we look at what is probably the biggest domestic challenge. Too many people and not enough housing.

Tom Lee-Devlin [00:02:47] First, we look at what is probably the biggest domestic challenge. Too many people and not enough housing.

Simon Rabinovitch [00:02:53] It’s got to the point that even the Bank of Canada has talked about how all of these new arrivals are putting a lot of stress on the economy, especially on the housing system.

Simon Rabinovitch [00:02:53] It’s got to the point that even the Bank of Canada has talked about how all of these new arrivals are putting a lot of stress on the economy, especially on the housing system.

Mike Bird [00:03:03] Then we pay a visit to someone whose job it is to try and address that challenge.

Mike Bird [00:03:03] Then we pay a visit to someone whose job it is to try and address that challenge.

Chrystia Freeland [00:03:08] We are absolutely focussed on that. As a government in the budget that I tabled in the spring. We put forward a plan to build nearly 4 million homes.

Chrystia Freeland [00:03:08] We are absolutely focussed on that. As a government in the budget that I tabled in the spring. We put forward a plan to build nearly 4 million homes.

Alice Fulwood [00:03:20] And finally we turn to some of the international challenges, including the delicate task of negotiating with Canada’s giant next door neighbour.

Alice Fulwood [00:03:20] And finally we turn to some of the international challenges, including the delicate task of negotiating with Canada’s giant next door neighbour.

Chrystia Freeland [00:03:28] I thought it was a big occasion, so I made a standing rib roast.

Chrystia Freeland [00:03:28] I thought it was a big occasion, so I made a standing rib roast.

Alice Fulwood [00:03:33] With American all Canadian beef.

Alice Fulwood [00:03:33] With American all Canadian beef.

Chrystia Freeland [00:03:35] Oh, Canadian, of course.

Chrystia Freeland [00:03:35] Oh, Canadian, of course.

Alice Fulwood [00:03:46] Hi, Mike. Hi, Tom.

Alice Fulwood [00:03:46] Hi, Mike. Hi, Tom.

Mike Bird [00:03:48] Hey, Alice. Alice. Tom. How’s the new gig going on? New boss? Our new business editor.

Mike Bird [00:03:48] Hey, Alice. Alice. Tom. How’s the new gig going on? New boss? Our new business editor.

Tom Lee-Devlin [00:03:53] Yes. The reign of terror has begun. No, no, it’s going well so far. The earnings season is now underway, so the pace of news is certainly picking up. Alice, I see you’re back in DC. Things seem pretty quiet there right now.

Tom Lee-Devlin [00:03:53] Yes. The reign of terror has begun. No, no, it’s going well so far. The earnings season is now underway, so the pace of news is certainly picking up. Alice, I see you’re back in DC. Things seem pretty quiet there right now.

Alice Fulwood [00:04:07] Yes, I made it back just in time for the political drama of the week. And just in time was actually precisely the right term, because I was very close to not making it to Toronto, where I was carrying out the interview for this week’s show because of various flight related battles related to the CrowdStrike outage, which is the business drama of this week. And I also had to do a rather leisurely wait in the airport on my way home again, as rebooting the plane software seemed to flag some maintenance issue that it turned out not actually exist.

Alice Fulwood [00:04:07] Yes, I made it back just in time for the political drama of the week. And just in time was actually precisely the right term, because I was very close to not making it to Toronto, where I was carrying out the interview for this week’s show because of various flight related battles related to the CrowdStrike outage, which is the business drama of this week. And I also had to do a rather leisurely wait in the airport on my way home again, as rebooting the plane software seemed to flag some maintenance issue that it turned out not actually exist.

Mike Bird [00:04:36] It’s always slightly reassuring to learn how much of the world’s infrastructure is supported by a few lines of code that could be accidentally updated. Flight drama aside, how did you find Canada? Have you been to Canada much before?

Mike Bird [00:04:36] It’s always slightly reassuring to learn how much of the world’s infrastructure is supported by a few lines of code that could be accidentally updated. Flight drama aside, how did you find Canada? Have you been to Canada much before?

Alice Fulwood [00:04:49] I’m not sure. I happen to Canada, possibly as a very small child, but, based on my adult sampling of, oh, you know, a day and a half, I was a very big fan. I always enjoy a city with a nice waterfront area, which Toronto certainly boasts. The Torontonians who populate the parts of the city where I was staying seem to be at inordinately healthy. But, you know, all the streets were lined with smoothie bars and vegan sushi places and Pilates studios and so on. There wasn’t a McDonald’s in sight.

Alice Fulwood [00:04:49] I’m not sure. I happen to Canada, possibly as a very small child, but, based on my adult sampling of, oh, you know, a day and a half, I was a very big fan. I always enjoy a city with a nice waterfront area, which Toronto certainly boasts. The Torontonians who populate the parts of the city where I was staying seem to be at inordinately healthy. But, you know, all the streets were lined with smoothie bars and vegan sushi places and Pilates studios and so on. There wasn’t a McDonald’s in sight.

Tom Lee-Devlin [00:05:17] And, what took you to this lakeside smoothie Paradise?

Tom Lee-Devlin [00:05:17] And, what took you to this lakeside smoothie Paradise?

Alice Fulwood [00:05:21] I was in Toronto to speak to Chrystia Freeland, who is kind of the finance minister and the deputy prime minister. She’s probably the country’s most powerful politician after Justin Trudeau. And I was most keen to hear her talk about the problems facing young Canadians. Because while millennials and Gen Z’s or Gen Z’s all over the rich world have been complaining about their prospects, their troubles do seem to be particularly acute in Canada. Interviewing Chrystia was fun for another reason as well, which is that her first career was as a freelance journalist based in Ukraine, writing for, among other publications, The Economist.

Alice Fulwood [00:05:21] I was in Toronto to speak to Chrystia Freeland, who is kind of the finance minister and the deputy prime minister. She’s probably the country’s most powerful politician after Justin Trudeau. And I was most keen to hear her talk about the problems facing young Canadians. Because while millennials and Gen Z’s or Gen Z’s all over the rich world have been complaining about their prospects, their troubles do seem to be particularly acute in Canada. Interviewing Chrystia was fun for another reason as well, which is that her first career was as a freelance journalist based in Ukraine, writing for, among other publications, The Economist.

Mike Bird [00:05:57] Well, obviously a crucial beginning to her career could be any of us. So how did Chrystia Freeland get herself into such high office? Does she, in fact, have any tips for the rest of us on how to trade a career in crafting lead into leading a country?

Mike Bird [00:05:57] Well, obviously a crucial beginning to her career could be any of us. So how did Chrystia Freeland get herself into such high office? Does she, in fact, have any tips for the rest of us on how to trade a career in crafting lead into leading a country?

Alice Fulwood [00:06:13] Well, that’s a great question, right? One of many that I did eventually put to her. But before we hear from the deputy publisher herself, I wanted to bring in Simon Rabinovich, who is our US economics editor and more importantly, a born and bred Canadian. Hi, Simon, welcome to Money Talks.

Alice Fulwood [00:06:13] Well, that’s a great question, right? One of many that I did eventually put to her. But before we hear from the deputy publisher herself, I wanted to bring in Simon Rabinovich, who is our US economics editor and more importantly, a born and bred Canadian. Hi, Simon, welcome to Money Talks.

Simon Rabinovitch [00:06:29] Hi, Alice. Great to be here.

Simon Rabinovitch [00:06:29] Hi, Alice. Great to be here.

Alice Fulwood [00:06:31] So first of all, tell us a bit about Chrystia Freeland.

Alice Fulwood [00:06:31] So first of all, tell us a bit about Chrystia Freeland.

Simon Rabinovitch [00:06:34] Amongst Canadian politicians. I think she’s one of the few that really has something of an international reputation. Educated at both Harvard and Oxford, started her career as a journalist, eventually rose up to be US managing editor of the Financial Times, and she came into office in 2013, became a member of parliament. Then, when Justin Trudeau was elected as prime minister in 2015, she joined his cabinet and has served in a variety of roles. She’s been Minister of International Trade of Foreign Affairs and now, of course, finance. At some point, she earned the moniker Minister of Everything because she really did seem to have her fingers in lots of different pies, and has been seen over the time as a potential successor to Prime Minister Trudeau. It should be noted that recently I think there’s more doubts about that. Polling has not looked great. You know, one of the few possible candidates who’s actually polling worse than Prime Minister Trudeau, but she is really an important voice to pay attention to when discussing Canadian policy on everything from immigration through to artificial intelligence.

Simon Rabinovitch [00:06:34] Amongst Canadian politicians. I think she’s one of the few that really has something of an international reputation. Educated at both Harvard and Oxford, started her career as a journalist, eventually rose up to be US managing editor of the Financial Times, and she came into office in 2013, became a member of parliament. Then, when Justin Trudeau was elected as prime minister in 2015, she joined his cabinet and has served in a variety of roles. She’s been Minister of International Trade of Foreign Affairs and now, of course, finance. At some point, she earned the moniker Minister of Everything because she really did seem to have her fingers in lots of different pies, and has been seen over the time as a potential successor to Prime Minister Trudeau. It should be noted that recently I think there’s more doubts about that. Polling has not looked great. You know, one of the few possible candidates who’s actually polling worse than Prime Minister Trudeau, but she is really an important voice to pay attention to when discussing Canadian policy on everything from immigration through to artificial intelligence.

Alice Fulwood [00:07:42] And you mentioned her polling there. What about Justin Trudeau’s Canada is due to hold an election in 2025. What do you make of the Liberal Party’s chances in that election?

Alice Fulwood [00:07:42] And you mentioned her polling there. What about Justin Trudeau’s Canada is due to hold an election in 2025. What do you make of the Liberal Party’s chances in that election?

Simon Rabinovitch [00:07:52] Well, they don’t look great. So the election has got to be held by the latest October of 2025. Right now, the liberals are polling very poorly. They’ve been in power under Trudeau for nearly a decade. So it’s understandable that Canadians might want a change after that length of time in office. Like all incumbent parties throughout the West, Covid has been rough to them. Inflation has been high in Canada as it has been elsewhere. And if you look at the polls right now, the liberals are just above 20% or so. The Conservative Party was polling about double that, which is why there’s a lot of discussion right now about whether Trudeau will be the one who leads them into what seems to be certain electoral defeat, or whether he stands aside and a leadership contest takes place, which we would expect Chrystia Freeland would participate in.

Simon Rabinovitch [00:07:52] Well, they don’t look great. So the election has got to be held by the latest October of 2025. Right now, the liberals are polling very poorly. They’ve been in power under Trudeau for nearly a decade. So it’s understandable that Canadians might want a change after that length of time in office. Like all incumbent parties throughout the West, Covid has been rough to them. Inflation has been high in Canada as it has been elsewhere. And if you look at the polls right now, the liberals are just above 20% or so. The Conservative Party was polling about double that, which is why there’s a lot of discussion right now about whether Trudeau will be the one who leads them into what seems to be certain electoral defeat, or whether he stands aside and a leadership contest takes place, which we would expect Chrystia Freeland would participate in.

Alice Fulwood [00:08:43] And you mentioned that the liberals are unpopular in Canada at the moment. For the same reason that incumbents all over the world are so things like inflation, Covid, etc.. Are there any idiosyncrasies you’d highlight about Canadian policymaking that you think might have exacerbated why the liberals are doing so poorly?

Alice Fulwood [00:08:43] And you mentioned that the liberals are unpopular in Canada at the moment. For the same reason that incumbents all over the world are so things like inflation, Covid, etc.. Are there any idiosyncrasies you’d highlight about Canadian policymaking that you think might have exacerbated why the liberals are doing so poorly?

Simon Rabinovitch [00:08:58] Well, first of all, to stand back, I think it’s worth saying that Canada is a country that probably deserves more attention than it gets. It’s the world’s 10th biggest economy. If you picked up Canada and you dropped it somewhere in Europe, it would get a lot of attention. Obviously, it’s dramatically overshadowed by its neighbour to the south, but on its own terms, Canada matters economically. It’s one of the world’s most diversified economies, everything from natural resources through to AI innovations. So it’s an important country to pay attention to. I think what makes Canada especially interesting at the moment is really the immigration side of things. Canada has been uniquely open to immigrants for decades. In the last couple of years, though, that has begun to break down. The numbers entering Canada are phenomenal. I mean, the Trudeau government has talked about targeting 500,000 permanent residents a year, and basically it’s been hitting that in American terms, that would be equivalent of America taking in 4 million immigrants a year. If you think about the population differences between the two countries. America is having a crisis with a little more than 1 million immigrants. But beyond that permanent resident number, Canada also has been bringing in tons of international students. And it’s got to the point that even the Bank of Canada has talked about how all of these new arrivals are putting a lot of stress on the economy, especially on the housing system. And this has become a very fruitful line of attack for the conservative leader, who’s talked about the idea of potentially linking immigration numbers to availability of housing. So this is a point that the liberals are very, very vulnerable on that. As I said, historically, Canada has been very proud of its immigration system, but it’s now at something of a crisis point where it really has to make big changes. Otherwise, I think we will see Canada heading in the kinds of populist directions that we’re, you know, very familiar with in America and in Europe.

Simon Rabinovitch [00:08:58] Well, first of all, to stand back, I think it’s worth saying that Canada is a country that probably deserves more attention than it gets. It’s the world’s 10th biggest economy. If you picked up Canada and you dropped it somewhere in Europe, it would get a lot of attention. Obviously, it’s dramatically overshadowed by its neighbour to the south, but on its own terms, Canada matters economically. It’s one of the world’s most diversified economies, everything from natural resources through to AI innovations. So it’s an important country to pay attention to. I think what makes Canada especially interesting at the moment is really the immigration side of things. Canada has been uniquely open to immigrants for decades. In the last couple of years, though, that has begun to break down. The numbers entering Canada are phenomenal. I mean, the Trudeau government has talked about targeting 500,000 permanent residents a year, and basically it’s been hitting that in American terms, that would be equivalent of America taking in 4 million immigrants a year. If you think about the population differences between the two countries. America is having a crisis with a little more than 1 million immigrants. But beyond that permanent resident number, Canada also has been bringing in tons of international students. And it’s got to the point that even the Bank of Canada has talked about how all of these new arrivals are putting a lot of stress on the economy, especially on the housing system. And this has become a very fruitful line of attack for the conservative leader, who’s talked about the idea of potentially linking immigration numbers to availability of housing. So this is a point that the liberals are very, very vulnerable on that. As I said, historically, Canada has been very proud of its immigration system, but it’s now at something of a crisis point where it really has to make big changes. Otherwise, I think we will see Canada heading in the kinds of populist directions that we’re, you know, very familiar with in America and in Europe.

Alice Fulwood [00:10:56] Simon, thank you so much for joining the show, and thank you for your chest thumping about the importance of Canada. I wouldn’t have expected anything less from our resident Canadian.

Alice Fulwood [00:10:56] Simon, thank you so much for joining the show, and thank you for your chest thumping about the importance of Canada. I wouldn’t have expected anything less from our resident Canadian.

Simon Rabinovitch [00:11:05] Viewers cannot see that I’m now wearing a Canadian maple Leaf sweater, but they’ll have to believe that.

Simon Rabinovitch [00:11:05] Viewers cannot see that I’m now wearing a Canadian maple Leaf sweater, but they’ll have to believe that.

Alice Fulwood [00:11:11] Yes, during this interview, you did take a sip from a glass filled with maple syrup. I guess you’ll have to take my word for that. You know, Simon, thank you so much.

Alice Fulwood [00:11:11] Yes, during this interview, you did take a sip from a glass filled with maple syrup. I guess you’ll have to take my word for that. You know, Simon, thank you so much.

Simon Rabinovitch [00:11:18] Thank you. Alice.

Simon Rabinovitch [00:11:18] Thank you. Alice.

Alice Fulwood [00:11:26] I think we’re here. Yes, yes, I think we’re here. Cool. All right. I guess we should get on with all.

Alice Fulwood [00:11:26] I think we’re here. Yes, yes, I think we’re here. Cool. All right. I guess we should get on with all.

Alice Fulwood [00:11:31] My interview with Chrystia Freeland took place in a surprisingly normal setting.

Alice Fulwood [00:11:31] My interview with Chrystia Freeland took place in a surprisingly normal setting.

Chrystia Freeland [00:11:36] Oh, hi.

Alice Fulwood [00:11:37] Hello. Hi.

Alice Fulwood [00:11:38] And even though Canada’s deputy prime minister lives in a typical semi-detached house on a leafy street in a neighbourhood just north of the centre of Toronto, it’s in the constituency that she represents in the Canadian parliament.

Alice Fulwood [00:11:38] And even though Canada’s deputy prime minister lives in a typical semi-detached house on a leafy street in a neighbourhood just north of the centre of Toronto, it’s in the constituency that she represents in the Canadian parliament.

Alice Fulwood [00:11:52] Hi. It’s so nice to meet you.

Alice Fulwood [00:11:52] Hi. It’s so nice to meet you.

Chrystia Freeland [00:11:53] It’s very nice to meet you. You must be Alice. Yes.

Chrystia Freeland [00:11:53] It’s very nice to meet you. You must be Alice. Yes.

Alice Fulwood [00:11:56] You must be Chrystia. Yes.

Alice Fulwood [00:11:56] You must be Chrystia. Yes.

Chrystia Freeland [00:11:58] Have you guys, like a cup of tea?

Chrystia Freeland [00:11:58] Have you guys, like a cup of tea?

Alice Fulwood [00:11:59] We sat down together in a nook in the corner of her kitchen. Chrystia Freeland, welcome to Money Talks.

Alice Fulwood [00:11:59] We sat down together in a nook in the corner of her kitchen. Chrystia Freeland, welcome to Money Talks.

Chrystia Freeland [00:12:06] Thank you very much, Alice. Great to be with you.

Chrystia Freeland [00:12:06] Thank you very much, Alice. Great to be with you.

Alice Fulwood [00:12:09] So we are going to discuss issues facing young people predominantly. And a lot of the issues that we sort of hear about are ones that you hear from people in all kinds of developed countries. So in particular, the cost of living is rising very quickly. Wages have not kept pace. And there are a lot of big global drivers of this problem. Supply chain issues, Covid aftershocks, fiscal, monetary policy and politicians all over the world are being punished at the ballot box for sort of not fixing these problems. So what can politicians do and what have you been trying to do in Canada?

Alice Fulwood [00:12:09] So we are going to discuss issues facing young people predominantly. And a lot of the issues that we sort of hear about are ones that you hear from people in all kinds of developed countries. So in particular, the cost of living is rising very quickly. Wages have not kept pace. And there are a lot of big global drivers of this problem. Supply chain issues, Covid aftershocks, fiscal, monetary policy and politicians all over the world are being punished at the ballot box for sort of not fixing these problems. So what can politicians do and what have you been trying to do in Canada?

Chrystia Freeland [00:12:40] Well, if you don’t mind, Alice, I’m going to start with where you started. Your question that so many of the challenges are common across the rich countries in the world. Having said that, people really don’t want to be told that they don’t want to be told, well, your life is challenging, but it’s challenging for everybody in all the world’s rich countries. That is cold comfort. And I think here in Canada, things actually are harder than they were for previous generations. I’m going to be 56 this summer. I am a mother of three, and I really do think a central obligation of the parent and grandparent generations is to make a good life achievable for millennials and Gen Z’s. So what do we need to do to make that possible? I think we need to do three principal things. First one is be sure the economy is strong and there are good jobs today and good jobs tomorrow. A good life starts with having a good job where you can support yourself and support your family. Second thing is, be sure you have the social infrastructure you need to thrive. And one of the things that our government has done is a national program of early learning and childcare. We now have childcare down to $10 a day in many provinces and territories. It’s been reduced at least 50% across the country. And a commitment to bring it down to $10 a day everywhere by March 2026. It’s a great liberation for young people, especially for young women. It means you don’t have to choose between a career and a family. But it’s also a great economic policy. And we’ve already seen that the working age women’s labour force participation rate in Canada has jumped up to record highs. So that’s number two for young people. So question number three I’ll quickly I’ll say it quickly Alice I promise. Number three and I think this is the biggest challenge is housing. It is not a problem unique to Canada but it is acute in Canada. And it is most challenging for young Canadians because they are the generation that hasn’t bought their house yet.

Chrystia Freeland [00:12:40] Well, if you don’t mind, Alice, I’m going to start with where you started. Your question that so many of the challenges are common across the rich countries in the world. Having said that, people really don’t want to be told that they don’t want to be told, well, your life is challenging, but it’s challenging for everybody in all the world’s rich countries. That is cold comfort. And I think here in Canada, things actually are harder than they were for previous generations. I’m going to be 56 this summer. I am a mother of three, and I really do think a central obligation of the parent and grandparent generations is to make a good life achievable for millennials and Gen Z’s. So what do we need to do to make that possible? I think we need to do three principal things. First one is be sure the economy is strong and there are good jobs today and good jobs tomorrow. A good life starts with having a good job where you can support yourself and support your family. Second thing is, be sure you have the social infrastructure you need to thrive. And one of the things that our government has done is a national program of early learning and childcare. We now have childcare down to $10 a day in many provinces and territories. It’s been reduced at least 50% across the country. And a commitment to bring it down to $10 a day everywhere by March 2026. It’s a great liberation for young people, especially for young women. It means you don’t have to choose between a career and a family. But it’s also a great economic policy. And we’ve already seen that the working age women’s labour force participation rate in Canada has jumped up to record highs. So that’s number two for young people. So question number three I’ll quickly I’ll say it quickly Alice I promise. Number three and I think this is the biggest challenge is housing. It is not a problem unique to Canada but it is acute in Canada. And it is most challenging for young Canadians because they are the generation that hasn’t bought their house yet.

Alice Fulwood [00:15:08] Right. And it does seem as though it has become the big issue for younger voters in the last couple of years, polls have suggested that young people who have been a mainstay voter base for the Liberal Party have turned against the government, in large part due to this issue. So what can you do to either help young people buy a house or help bring the cost of housing down?

Alice Fulwood [00:15:08] Right. And it does seem as though it has become the big issue for younger voters in the last couple of years, polls have suggested that young people who have been a mainstay voter base for the Liberal Party have turned against the government, in large part due to this issue. So what can you do to either help young people buy a house or help bring the cost of housing down?

Chrystia Freeland [00:15:28] The first thing that we have to do and we are doing is land the plane of the Covid economy. I think so many of our challenges in Canada and around the world are due to the particular pains. Know that whole cycle of Covid created, right, like lockdowns followed by opening up, followed by shortages, followed by inflation, followed by high interest rates. So job number one is to return to a stable, normal macroeconomic environment. And we’re nearly there. In Canada, we’ve now had inflation within the Bank of Canada’s target range for six months. The Bank of Canada has already lowered interest rates once and all of this has happened. Knock on wood, I’m knocking on my windowsill here without a recession. It’s important for housing because high interest rates, if you are getting a new mortgage, that’s really, really painful and hard for a young family. High interest rates make it hard to buy their first home. High interest rates make it harder for people to build purpose built rental. So number one, create the conditions which we are doing in Canada, lowest debt and deficit in the G7 so that interest rates can come down. Number two build homes faster. And we are absolutely focussed on that as a government in the budget that I tabled in the spring, and we put forward a plan to build nearly 4 million homes. Working with municipalities to cut the red tape and to change the attitude towards zoning, we have a housing accelerator fund in cities and towns across the country, in part, you know, sort of seduced by our housing accelerator fund. You are seeing an embrace of higher density cutting red tape that will get more homes built faster. And then the third thing that we’ve put in place is more tools to help young people afford that first home. We’ve created a first home savings account where it’s tax free in, tax free out. We have more than 750,000 young Canadians putting their money in that account. I see that as a sign of hope for the future. And we’ve also said starting next month, people buying their first home, if it is a new build home, will be able to have a 30 year amortisation on their mortgage. So I would say those are the main tools.

Chrystia Freeland [00:15:28] The first thing that we have to do and we are doing is land the plane of the Covid economy. I think so many of our challenges in Canada and around the world are due to the particular pains. Know that whole cycle of Covid created, right, like lockdowns followed by opening up, followed by shortages, followed by inflation, followed by high interest rates. So job number one is to return to a stable, normal macroeconomic environment. And we’re nearly there. In Canada, we’ve now had inflation within the Bank of Canada’s target range for six months. The Bank of Canada has already lowered interest rates once and all of this has happened. Knock on wood, I’m knocking on my windowsill here without a recession. It’s important for housing because high interest rates, if you are getting a new mortgage, that’s really, really painful and hard for a young family. High interest rates make it hard to buy their first home. High interest rates make it harder for people to build purpose built rental. So number one, create the conditions which we are doing in Canada, lowest debt and deficit in the G7 so that interest rates can come down. Number two build homes faster. And we are absolutely focussed on that as a government in the budget that I tabled in the spring, and we put forward a plan to build nearly 4 million homes. Working with municipalities to cut the red tape and to change the attitude towards zoning, we have a housing accelerator fund in cities and towns across the country, in part, you know, sort of seduced by our housing accelerator fund. You are seeing an embrace of higher density cutting red tape that will get more homes built faster. And then the third thing that we’ve put in place is more tools to help young people afford that first home. We’ve created a first home savings account where it’s tax free in, tax free out. We have more than 750,000 young Canadians putting their money in that account. I see that as a sign of hope for the future. And we’ve also said starting next month, people buying their first home, if it is a new build home, will be able to have a 30 year amortisation on their mortgage. So I would say those are the main tools.

Alice Fulwood [00:18:07] Well, I applaud you for talking about supply before some of the demand side incentives, because you are an economist by training.

Alice Fulwood [00:18:07] Well, I applaud you for talking about supply before some of the demand side incentives, because you are an economist by training.

Chrystia Freeland [00:18:14] You laid a trap for me. Alice, I could see you. I felt like a steer in a corral being herded. But I actually believe that the supply. Think there’s a lot of things you have to do. There’s no silver bullet on housing. But I agree with you. Supply is where we have to start.

Chrystia Freeland [00:18:14] You laid a trap for me. Alice, I could see you. I felt like a steer in a corral being herded. But I actually believe that the supply. Think there’s a lot of things you have to do. There’s no silver bullet on housing. But I agree with you. Supply is where we have to start.

Alice Fulwood [00:18:33] It seems like some of the things you’ve tried to do to help boost supply have had a few problems. One is that the provinces don’t necessarily agree with all the things that you would necessarily like to do, and labour in the construction market is already sort of relatively maxed out. So I agree that it’s the right approach to take. Is it just very difficult to implement, though.

Alice Fulwood [00:18:33] It seems like some of the things you’ve tried to do to help boost supply have had a few problems. One is that the provinces don’t necessarily agree with all the things that you would necessarily like to do, and labour in the construction market is already sort of relatively maxed out. So I agree that it’s the right approach to take. Is it just very difficult to implement, though.

Chrystia Freeland [00:18:52] In terms of the challenges with the provinces and municipalities? I work closely with a lot of mayors, with a lot of premiers. I was Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs at one point, perhaps a uniquely Canadian role at a high level. I do think there is a broad recognition across Canada that we need to get more homes built faster, and I really think the past year has been a turning point. I earlier this week, together with the Prime Minister, announced the details of a massive investment in public transit $30 billion over ten years, and that included some conditions on housing. Municipalities have to apply for the money, and they only get it if they commit to no minimum parking requirements for developments, high density near public transit, high density near secondary schools. And that is not something that we’ve had push back on. NIMBYism exists. Of course it does. And in some ways, maybe all of us are NIMBYs in our own hearts. If we’re truthful.

Chrystia Freeland [00:18:52] In terms of the challenges with the provinces and municipalities? I work closely with a lot of mayors, with a lot of premiers. I was Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs at one point, perhaps a uniquely Canadian role at a high level. I do think there is a broad recognition across Canada that we need to get more homes built faster, and I really think the past year has been a turning point. I earlier this week, together with the Prime Minister, announced the details of a massive investment in public transit $30 billion over ten years, and that included some conditions on housing. Municipalities have to apply for the money, and they only get it if they commit to no minimum parking requirements for developments, high density near public transit, high density near secondary schools. And that is not something that we’ve had push back on. NIMBYism exists. Of course it does. And in some ways, maybe all of us are NIMBYs in our own hearts. If we’re truthful.

Alice Fulwood [00:20:03] If we’re homeowners.

Alice Fulwood [00:20:03] If we’re homeowners.

Chrystia Freeland [00:20:04] Yeah. Well, exactly. But I do think there is this sea change, so I am optimistic.

Chrystia Freeland [00:20:04] Yeah. Well, exactly. But I do think there is this sea change, so I am optimistic.

Alice Fulwood [00:20:10] Okay. One of the things you mentioned in your answer was a growing population. And actually one of the big policy differences between Canada and some of the rest of the developed world that we’ve been talking about has been the immigration policy over the last decade, the absolute number of permanent migrants to Canada has doubled to around half a million. If you include other kinds of migrants as well, you’re up to almost half a million migrants a year, which is on par with the level of migration that you see in the US, which obviously is much, much bigger. To me, it sounds like an astonishing level of inward migration. Has this all been deliberate and why does Canada need so many migrants?

Alice Fulwood [00:20:10] Okay. One of the things you mentioned in your answer was a growing population. And actually one of the big policy differences between Canada and some of the rest of the developed world that we’ve been talking about has been the immigration policy over the last decade, the absolute number of permanent migrants to Canada has doubled to around half a million. If you include other kinds of migrants as well, you’re up to almost half a million migrants a year, which is on par with the level of migration that you see in the US, which obviously is much, much bigger. To me, it sounds like an astonishing level of inward migration. Has this all been deliberate and why does Canada need so many migrants?

Chrystia Freeland [00:20:44] I think there is a national consensus in Canada that immigration is a good thing for Canada. And to quote a musical, immigrants, they get the job done. And we talked about right at the beginning, Alice, the similarities between the rich industrialised countries of the world. One similarity is that countries are facing a real demographic challenge. A difference is Canada is a country that culturally, politically, socially believes in welcoming immigrants and that helps us with the demographic challenge. Having said that, I do think that particularly when it comes to international students, we have run into some problems and we had a system for admitting international students that was abused by some post-secondary schools. The result has not been good for the people who came to Canada, and it is one of the sources of pressure on our infrastructure. And that’s why our government has taken real steps to bring the system under better control, to be sure that the numbers are numbers that both in terms of housing and in terms of actually educating people who come here, we can absorb. And the other thing that we’ve done is, for the first time, actually put a cap on the number of temporary residents. Traditionally where our numbers are focussed is on permanent residents. So I am proud of Canada as an immigration nation, but I don’t want to be looking at it through rose coloured glasses. I do think that it’s something where we’ve had to take steps, and the measures we have taken, I think, will also help with the housing situation.

Chrystia Freeland [00:20:44] I think there is a national consensus in Canada that immigration is a good thing for Canada. And to quote a musical, immigrants, they get the job done. And we talked about right at the beginning, Alice, the similarities between the rich industrialised countries of the world. One similarity is that countries are facing a real demographic challenge. A difference is Canada is a country that culturally, politically, socially believes in welcoming immigrants and that helps us with the demographic challenge. Having said that, I do think that particularly when it comes to international students, we have run into some problems and we had a system for admitting international students that was abused by some post-secondary schools. The result has not been good for the people who came to Canada, and it is one of the sources of pressure on our infrastructure. And that’s why our government has taken real steps to bring the system under better control, to be sure that the numbers are numbers that both in terms of housing and in terms of actually educating people who come here, we can absorb. And the other thing that we’ve done is, for the first time, actually put a cap on the number of temporary residents. Traditionally where our numbers are focussed is on permanent residents. So I am proud of Canada as an immigration nation, but I don’t want to be looking at it through rose coloured glasses. I do think that it’s something where we’ve had to take steps, and the measures we have taken, I think, will also help with the housing situation.

Alice Fulwood [00:22:51] Tom. Mike. We will hear a bit more from Chrystia in a moment on some more global issues, but it’s the immigration side of things, which Simon flagged at the start of the show, which is what I think is the most gripping thing here. And it’s striking to hear after, you know, some important caveats about how useful migrants are, all that kind of sort of built on, on migration. The Chrystia did immediately jump to admitting that there have been some major issues with immigration policy in Canada, which they are now trying to fix, and that pivot is a relatively recent one, and it really is downstream of the consequences this boom in migration has had on housing and in particular housing, competition and jobs, competition for young people. We flagged rising youth unemployment and falling homeownership rates among young people in the intro. Those things are not really happening elsewhere in the rich world. And the reason it’s young people who are facing these trade offs or constraints most acutely, is because almost all of the migrants are young people. About two thirds of those coming to Canada are between the ages of 20 and 39, compared with perhaps about a quarter of the local population. And when I was sort of reading around this issue, what economists described housing affordability, housing supply constraints and fast population growth via migration as a kind of policymakers trilemma or another impossible trinity akin to capital controls, a fixed currency in monetary policy, you can’t have all three, and Canada has forgotten affordability.

Alice Fulwood [00:22:51] Tom. Mike. We will hear a bit more from Chrystia in a moment on some more global issues, but it’s the immigration side of things, which Simon flagged at the start of the show, which is what I think is the most gripping thing here. And it’s striking to hear after, you know, some important caveats about how useful migrants are, all that kind of sort of built on, on migration. The Chrystia did immediately jump to admitting that there have been some major issues with immigration policy in Canada, which they are now trying to fix, and that pivot is a relatively recent one, and it really is downstream of the consequences this boom in migration has had on housing and in particular housing, competition and jobs, competition for young people. We flagged rising youth unemployment and falling homeownership rates among young people in the intro. Those things are not really happening elsewhere in the rich world. And the reason it’s young people who are facing these trade offs or constraints most acutely, is because almost all of the migrants are young people. About two thirds of those coming to Canada are between the ages of 20 and 39, compared with perhaps about a quarter of the local population. And when I was sort of reading around this issue, what economists described housing affordability, housing supply constraints and fast population growth via migration as a kind of policymakers trilemma or another impossible trinity akin to capital controls, a fixed currency in monetary policy, you can’t have all three, and Canada has forgotten affordability.

Mike Bird [00:24:13] Yeah, that’s really interesting. And we actually have a whole episode coming up next week on the topic of immigration. You know, the backlash against it and what it means for business in particular. So you’ve all got that to look forward to. I think the Trinity that you mentioned, there is a pretty good way of thinking about some of the trade offs here. Another way that I often think about it is that there’s this inherently negative element to housing as an asset in a good, which sort of pits them against each other. The element of housing that’s a good is essentially the housing service. So if you’re renting a property from someone, you’re paying for a housing service. If you own a house, then you’re renting the housing service from yourself to an extent, but mostly you’re using it as an asset. And if you imagine a world where the supply of housing is perfectly elastic, by which, put very simply, there’s a new house built for everyone who can afford the cost of a new house being built. Then it doesn’t make a very good store of wealth. It depreciates in value rather than appreciates. That’s a problem in Canada and many places because, you know, housing is the bedrock of household asset wealth in these countries. So there’s a trade off there. And it does split generationally. And you have one increasingly elderly generations, asset wealth, which is dependent on housing being expensive. Someone else needs to pay the rent and face the house prices that keep that true. It’s nobody’s fault. So I don’t really like the sort of intergenerational conflict point because I think it’s quite unproductive. But there is a problem. There’s an element to housing that makes it sort of inherently zero sum.

Mike Bird [00:24:13] Yeah, that’s really interesting. And we actually have a whole episode coming up next week on the topic of immigration. You know, the backlash against it and what it means for business in particular. So you’ve all got that to look forward to. I think the Trinity that you mentioned, there is a pretty good way of thinking about some of the trade offs here. Another way that I often think about it is that there’s this inherently negative element to housing as an asset in a good, which sort of pits them against each other. The element of housing that’s a good is essentially the housing service. So if you’re renting a property from someone, you’re paying for a housing service. If you own a house, then you’re renting the housing service from yourself to an extent, but mostly you’re using it as an asset. And if you imagine a world where the supply of housing is perfectly elastic, by which, put very simply, there’s a new house built for everyone who can afford the cost of a new house being built. Then it doesn’t make a very good store of wealth. It depreciates in value rather than appreciates. That’s a problem in Canada and many places because, you know, housing is the bedrock of household asset wealth in these countries. So there’s a trade off there. And it does split generationally. And you have one increasingly elderly generations, asset wealth, which is dependent on housing being expensive. Someone else needs to pay the rent and face the house prices that keep that true. It’s nobody’s fault. So I don’t really like the sort of intergenerational conflict point because I think it’s quite unproductive. But there is a problem. There’s an element to housing that makes it sort of inherently zero sum.

Tom Lee-Devlin [00:25:45] Yes. One thing I’ve always found really interesting, actually, is this fact that Australia, where I’m from, and Canada, they may have very different weather, but they actually have remarkably similar economies. They’re both resource rich, they both have lots of immigration and they both have very expensive housing. I’ve always found this somewhat baffling as well, given that both countries are also massive. Now, I suppose in Australia’s case, and in Canada’s case, those populations are concentrated in a fairly small sliver of the country. For Australia, that’s along the the East coast. In Canada’s case, that’s along the border with the US. But, you know, we’re not talking about Singapore here, right. There’s plenty of room to work with in terms of building houses.

Tom Lee-Devlin [00:25:45] Yes. One thing I’ve always found really interesting, actually, is this fact that Australia, where I’m from, and Canada, they may have very different weather, but they actually have remarkably similar economies. They’re both resource rich, they both have lots of immigration and they both have very expensive housing. I’ve always found this somewhat baffling as well, given that both countries are also massive. Now, I suppose in Australia’s case, and in Canada’s case, those populations are concentrated in a fairly small sliver of the country. For Australia, that’s along the the East coast. In Canada’s case, that’s along the border with the US. But, you know, we’re not talking about Singapore here, right. There’s plenty of room to work with in terms of building houses.

Mike Bird [00:26:27] I do always think about this when people talk about Canada, Australia, there’s always a sort of very serious chin scratching point made that, oh, actually, a lot of the land isn’t particularly good for House. We can’t just expand into all of it. And it’s like, I’m pretty sure you can expand into some of it if there’s a lot of it there, like surely some you haven’t surely maxed out the Canada that can be built on.

Mike Bird [00:26:27] I do always think about this when people talk about Canada, Australia, there’s always a sort of very serious chin scratching point made that, oh, actually, a lot of the land isn’t particularly good for House. We can’t just expand into all of it. And it’s like, I’m pretty sure you can expand into some of it if there’s a lot of it there, like surely some you haven’t surely maxed out the Canada that can be built on.

Alice Fulwood [00:26:50] So we’ve heard about some of the domestic challenges facing Canada. For the second half of my conversation with Chrystia Freeland, I wanted to turn to global issues. You’ve been one of the most senior leaders of a G7 government for almost a decade now, and there have been some sort of major geopolitical shifts over that time, a realignment of how the West views China conflict in Europe. Leaders in many places have turned against trade, which was the sort of initial role that you joined government. And it does seem as though protectionist policy has become seemingly a bipartisan issue in the US, at least with bills like the Inflation Reduction Act focusing so much on domestic manufacturing. Has your view on trade changed over the last decade, as it has sort of in other parts of the world, and how does Canada respond or adapt to policies like IRA? Are they the kind of thing that you feel like you have to emulate?

Alice Fulwood [00:26:50] So we’ve heard about some of the domestic challenges facing Canada. For the second half of my conversation with Chrystia Freeland, I wanted to turn to global issues. You’ve been one of the most senior leaders of a G7 government for almost a decade now, and there have been some sort of major geopolitical shifts over that time, a realignment of how the West views China conflict in Europe. Leaders in many places have turned against trade, which was the sort of initial role that you joined government. And it does seem as though protectionist policy has become seemingly a bipartisan issue in the US, at least with bills like the Inflation Reduction Act focusing so much on domestic manufacturing. Has your view on trade changed over the last decade, as it has sort of in other parts of the world, and how does Canada respond or adapt to policies like IRA? Are they the kind of thing that you feel like you have to emulate?

Chrystia Freeland [00:27:44] The short answer to all of those questions is yes. And the longer answer is yeah. I do think one of the biggest changes in the world is the attitude towards trade. And I would say particularly towards China. From my perspective, it is less a change in my views about how things should work. In an ideal textbook world with no friction and with no different political systems, which is maybe the kind of world that we thought we lived in.

Chrystia Freeland [00:27:44] The short answer to all of those questions is yes. And the longer answer is yeah. I do think one of the biggest changes in the world is the attitude towards trade. And I would say particularly towards China. From my perspective, it is less a change in my views about how things should work. In an ideal textbook world with no friction and with no different political systems, which is maybe the kind of world that we thought we lived in.

Alice Fulwood [00:28:31] Ricardo’s world.

Alice Fulwood [00:28:31] Ricardo’s world.

Chrystia Freeland [00:28:32] Exactly. Ricardo’s world, maybe even Adam Smith’s world. And more in recognition of how the world is actually working today. We really lived in this charmed world. The end of history world, from the fall of the Berlin Wall to the full Russian invasion of Ukraine. So 1989 to 2022, where we really did think we were all going to converge towards these open liberal systems. And broadly, countries built their policies on the assumption that that was the case towards everyone very much, including China. And that was the period when China joined the WTO. I think we are recognising now, actually, history didn’t end, and actually we weren’t all playing by the same rules. And we opened up our global trading system to a major economy that was playing by entirely different rules, and which I would say in recent years, has sort of doubled down on a heavily, centrally planned, party controlled approach. So I think the only thing you can do is to have economic policies which are adequate to that challenge. I was just earlier today at a car parts producer consulting on what to do, both in terms of tariffs and our EV incentives for EVs produced in China, and perhaps thinking more broadly across the supply chain.

Chrystia Freeland [00:28:32] Exactly. Ricardo’s world, maybe even Adam Smith’s world. And more in recognition of how the world is actually working today. We really lived in this charmed world. The end of history world, from the fall of the Berlin Wall to the full Russian invasion of Ukraine. So 1989 to 2022, where we really did think we were all going to converge towards these open liberal systems. And broadly, countries built their policies on the assumption that that was the case towards everyone very much, including China. And that was the period when China joined the WTO. I think we are recognising now, actually, history didn’t end, and actually we weren’t all playing by the same rules. And we opened up our global trading system to a major economy that was playing by entirely different rules, and which I would say in recent years, has sort of doubled down on a heavily, centrally planned, party controlled approach. So I think the only thing you can do is to have economic policies which are adequate to that challenge. I was just earlier today at a car parts producer consulting on what to do, both in terms of tariffs and our EV incentives for EVs produced in China, and perhaps thinking more broadly across the supply chain.

Alice Fulwood [00:30:19] Sticking a little with trade, I guess. Polls do suggest that Donald Trump is probably likely to be re-elected as president south of the border come November. You dealt with his administration in renegotiating NAFTA. Do you have any advice for other world leaders in how to deal with the Trump administration? And what kind of challenges might a second term for him pose for Canada?

Alice Fulwood [00:30:19] Sticking a little with trade, I guess. Polls do suggest that Donald Trump is probably likely to be re-elected as president south of the border come November. You dealt with his administration in renegotiating NAFTA. Do you have any advice for other world leaders in how to deal with the Trump administration? And what kind of challenges might a second term for him pose for Canada?

Chrystia Freeland [00:30:38] Okay, I’m going to start right off by saying maybe, like all Canadians, I am full of admiration and even love for southern neighbours. And part of that means respecting the fact that their elections are for them, not for me. And their choices are for them, not for me. What I can talk about is history. And when it came to the Trump administration, I concluded our trade negotiation with a lot of respect for Ambassador Lighthizer. Once we were done the deal, he and his team came to this House and had supper here with me and my family. I thought it was a big occasion, so I made a standing rib roast.

Chrystia Freeland [00:30:38] Okay, I’m going to start right off by saying maybe, like all Canadians, I am full of admiration and even love for southern neighbours. And part of that means respecting the fact that their elections are for them, not for me. And their choices are for them, not for me. What I can talk about is history. And when it came to the Trump administration, I concluded our trade negotiation with a lot of respect for Ambassador Lighthizer. Once we were done the deal, he and his team came to this House and had supper here with me and my family. I thought it was a big occasion, so I made a standing rib roast.

Alice Fulwood [00:31:24] With American or Canadian beef?

Alice Fulwood [00:31:24] With American or Canadian beef?

Chrystia Freeland [00:31:26] Oh, Canadian, of course. I’m a farmer’s daughter. We used to eat our own beef. But anyway, he said something to me at the end of the process once we got to the new NAFTA. Which was a good thing about this deal, is Canada will now have an agreement that has been supported by a Republican president, by Donald Trump’s administration, and has been supported by Democrats, by Nancy Pelosi’s House. So that is a really solid. And for our relationship. And I do think that at the end of the day, when a relationship is truly reciprocal, when both parties benefit, that is a relationship which will endure. And that is the Canada-U.S. relationship.

Chrystia Freeland [00:31:26] Oh, Canadian, of course. I’m a farmer’s daughter. We used to eat our own beef. But anyway, he said something to me at the end of the process once we got to the new NAFTA. Which was a good thing about this deal, is Canada will now have an agreement that has been supported by a Republican president, by Donald Trump’s administration, and has been supported by Democrats, by Nancy Pelosi’s House. So that is a really solid. And for our relationship. And I do think that at the end of the day, when a relationship is truly reciprocal, when both parties benefit, that is a relationship which will endure. And that is the Canada-U.S. relationship.

Alice Fulwood [00:32:22] Okay, I can’t wrap this up without asking you about your transition from journalism into politics. You found pieces for The Economist from Ukraine. You rose up to be managing editor for the Financial Times. Did your experience reporting teach you anything about how to govern, or are there any lessons that apply?

Alice Fulwood [00:32:22] Okay, I can’t wrap this up without asking you about your transition from journalism into politics. You found pieces for The Economist from Ukraine. You rose up to be managing editor for the Financial Times. Did your experience reporting teach you anything about how to govern, or are there any lessons that apply?

Chrystia Freeland [00:32:38] Sure. I think reporting is such an important thing to do. And, you know, I’m not trying to butter you up here. But like reporters, they go out and they ask people questions and I will read my briefing papers. But I also believe in rolling up my sleeves and doing my own research. That’s why I told you, as part of our consultations on the tariffs, I went to a car parts manufacturer. I talked to the people running the plant, and I talked to the people working there. And there was actually one guy, George, who wanted to tell me about his experience. And actually he had very strong views about China and the global trading system. I gave him my business card, and George is going to send me an email and that is going to inform tariffs. So number one, talk to actual humans. Two reporters are built to be sceptical not to take assertions on face value. I think I do that too. And then the final thing, which, you know, listening to your questions reminds me of my pre politics self because, you know, like you, I did work for the Economist, I worked for the Financial Times, I worked for Reuters. And I think that teaches you to realise that no country is an island, and to try to think of every national experience and how it compares and how it doesn’t to what’s happening in other countries.

Chrystia Freeland [00:32:38] Sure. I think reporting is such an important thing to do. And, you know, I’m not trying to butter you up here. But like reporters, they go out and they ask people questions and I will read my briefing papers. But I also believe in rolling up my sleeves and doing my own research. That’s why I told you, as part of our consultations on the tariffs, I went to a car parts manufacturer. I talked to the people running the plant, and I talked to the people working there. And there was actually one guy, George, who wanted to tell me about his experience. And actually he had very strong views about China and the global trading system. I gave him my business card, and George is going to send me an email and that is going to inform tariffs. So number one, talk to actual humans. Two reporters are built to be sceptical not to take assertions on face value. I think I do that too. And then the final thing, which, you know, listening to your questions reminds me of my pre politics self because, you know, like you, I did work for the Economist, I worked for the Financial Times, I worked for Reuters. And I think that teaches you to realise that no country is an island, and to try to think of every national experience and how it compares and how it doesn’t to what’s happening in other countries.

Alice Fulwood [00:34:02] Okay. Well, if I ever want to govern any nations, I’ll take there’s.

Alice Fulwood [00:34:02] Okay. Well, if I ever want to govern any nations, I’ll take there’s.

Chrystia Freeland [00:34:06] Some there are some things that journalists do that are very bad for an elected politician to do, but I won’t go into those.

Chrystia Freeland [00:34:06] Some there are some things that journalists do that are very bad for an elected politician to do, but I won’t go into those.

Policy lessons from North America’s second-largest economy

Our podcast on markets, the economy and business. This week, we speak to deputy prime minister Chrystia Freeland about the biggest challenges facing Canada’s government

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